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General => Open Forum => Topic started by: ricardodemoraes on February 18, 2017, 06:44:44 PM



Title: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: ricardodemoraes on February 18, 2017, 06:44:44 PM
I would like to start a conversation about VMSC allowing drivers to ride with someone else or the co-driver, of course this is on my interest to ride with my co-driver, some clubs allow it and I know that VMSC does not allow it. If this is something that nobody has interest on it I am fine with it. Just wanted to ask if anybody would like to have this rule changed.


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: jloehlein on February 18, 2017, 08:51:47 PM
I think this is one of the best ways to improve - ride with someone, see what they do differently.  Especially in the same car.  I understand the point of view that it can provide an unfair advantage by giving you a view of the course ahead of your runs.  I'm also interested in hearing what others say.


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: wahoo5 on February 18, 2017, 09:19:32 PM
I think it is an excellent way to help a young or newer driver improve. I rode with Kate until someone complained. I would be in favor of changing the rule.

David


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: ccann26 on February 19, 2017, 05:44:17 AM
 
 I never had an issue with it but a lot of people did. Is the OD allowed to make exemptions at each event on this ?

   Even so complaints will come in because the same people do it every event and those same people are good and getting better because of it. Data-logging is even more of an advantage and thats allowed so why can't competitors ride along with each other ?

 


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: MikeDe on February 19, 2017, 06:10:02 AM
I am in favor as well. 

If we change the rule.....anyone can do it (except those with 1 seat) thus making any talk of an "advantage" irrelevant.  I have even thought about ax-ing with other clubs because of this so I can learn more/quicker.  I also believe it will bring more people to us.  I have several friends that would like to try but not in their own cars, they want to use mine and I am always hesitant to offer it up because of this rule.


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: pipefitter on February 19, 2017, 06:39:20 AM
I offered to ride with a novice at VMP some time back. It was his first event, and he couldn't find his way around the course, his buddies were there and he was embarrassed. I was told by the OD that I would forfeit my next run. That was fine, because it was the rule, even though I stood to learn absolutely nothing from the experience. It is an advantage, especially in a competitive two driver car. Think about it...two already competitive drivers, sharing information and chipping away at a what already looks like an insurmountable lead to the rest of the cars in the class. And while Chris makes a good point regarding data-logging, Those numbers are from what YOU just did, not experiencing the car on the course in the hands of a driver equal to yourself. We don't "really" enforce the rule now so we may as well do away with it. Just make sure it well publicized so the timing trailer/1st vice isn't overrun with questions, and complaints. Just my .02 worth.


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: abshifflett on February 19, 2017, 01:56:36 PM
I see no problems with it as long as everyone has an equal opportunity. As a driver of a single seat car now, that is my choice to give up this opportunity for this advantage, I could drive something else and take advantage of the experience or even ride with someone in their own car. In my experience riding with a novice before or between my runs has always been a distraction and I have given them more attention than my own runs and my times may have suffered because of it. As far as riding with an experienced driver in the same car, there is definitely an advantage and one of the best learning experiences possible. There's no money being won at VMSC events, no national titles, just bragging rights and the experience. I love this club because of the camaraderie and the fact that everyone wants to see their fellow racers learn, improve, and put down the fastest times possible.


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: gunny on February 20, 2017, 05:45:51 AM
I pretty much agree with what everyone above has said, I know as an OD I've been asked many times if someone can ride along with someone else I have always said yes (its mostly the new drivers asking). I have ridden along with alot of drivers when I first started (John, Keith, Roger, Justin, Paul, Ricardo, etc.) and learned so much on how to drive, I've also had those same people in my car while I was driving just to watch what I was doing, I was probably more of a distraction for them than a advantage. Anyhow I believe that being able to jump in someone elses car or have someone jump in your car is a good thing, I think it made that weekend experience so much better and fun for me.

If I need to show up to a meeting and to vote on this just let me know.

Gunny


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: pipefitter on February 20, 2017, 06:37:04 AM
The original question is whether or not drivers of the same car can ride with each other. If you have more than two people co-driving a car, can they ride too? Not being clever, but it will come up eventually. Riding with a beginner, or to help someone familiarize themselves with the course shouldn't be an issue, and I'm glad we softened our stance on it. But again, if we're going to abandon the rule completely, be sure it's publicized to every competitor.


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: allmybase on February 20, 2017, 08:52:35 AM
I'm in favor of changing the rule to allow co-drivers and other competitors to ride along.

Current rule in the VMSC competition and speed regulations, as of the 5/12/16 revision:
2.7.B "Only the driver and non-competing individuals shall be in the car while it is on the
course for competitive runs unless a navigator or instructor is required by the O.D.(s)."


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: catapultkid on February 21, 2017, 12:28:33 PM
Let's change.

I've never learned as much as I have as quickly as I had swapping seats with Justin 4-5 years ago.


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: pipefitter on February 21, 2017, 03:42:26 PM
Does the SCCA allow it?


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: Marc on February 21, 2017, 07:07:46 PM
Does the SCCA allow it?

No, they don't... and there are no acceptions to that rule.
I'm all for doing everything we can to encourage and improve our novice drivers, but that is not what was originally asked about. Getting a look at the course at speed has always been considered an advantage and doing it in your own car is even more of an advantage. That's why OD's are not supposed to check the course in their own car. At the local level it is generally found acceptable to allow an experienced driver to ride along with a novice driver and give instruction but once you allow experienced drivers the opportunity to "pre-run" the course as a rider, it gives that competitor an edge. And to say that making it available to everyone equally makes it somehow fair is in my opinion a bit short sighted as not everyone has a co-driver or another car available to ride in.


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: jamescarriv on February 27, 2017, 06:12:06 AM
Isn't this what practice events are for?

My opinion, keep the rule the way it is. If you are a top 20 or so driver, you should not be riding with other good drivers at points events.

If you are new, you should/must have other experienced drivers ride with you. Any benefit at this level is far outweighed by the increase in safety. I am not going to learn much (anything) riding with a novice. But, I will learn a lot riding with a good driver.

Just my thoughts


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: MikeDe on February 27, 2017, 01:30:44 PM
Post it as a poll on the website .... and no Russians this time :)


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: wahoo5 on February 28, 2017, 12:53:16 PM
Isn't this what practice events are for?

My opinion, keep the rule the way it is. If you are a top 20 or so driver, you should not be riding with other good drivers at points events.

If you are new, you should/must have other experienced drivers ride with you. Any benefit at this level is far outweighed by the increase in safety. I am not going to learn much (anything) riding with a novice. But, I will learn a lot riding with a good driver.

Just my thoughts


It is the SCCA rule at national events. There are also very few, if any novices, at national events. It is not necessarily the rule at SCCA local events where there are plenty of novices. It is not the rule at BRR, for example.

David


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: lugnutz on February 28, 2017, 05:27:04 PM
Hey all, (this is Audie not Jeff, FYI)

THIS topic is being referred to Engelbert, who is chairman of the competition committee and 1st Vice President for 2017.

I will bring it up at the board meeting, Thursday March 2nd. It will be discussed, passed on to the committee and a decision made, hopefully, by March 26th's autox.

TO SUMMARIZE EVERYTHING I'VE READ HERE AND HEARD IN THE PAST FEW YEARS.
 
WHY DO GOOD DRIVERS WANT TO RIDE ALONG WITH OTHER GOOD/CO DRIVERS?

1) when you ride along with a novice you are busy talking, pointing and praying. You are also going slow or   
    outrageously fast and out of control.

       Will this give you an affirmation that the course is indeed where you thought it was from your   
       pre race walk? MOST LIKELY
 
       Will it make you faster, MOST LIKELY NOT.
   
 2) HOWEVER

    If you ride on a course at speed, with a good driver will it help increase your chances of being more 
    confident thus faster?
    I know what I've observed and what it has done for me in the past, but I'll let you all answer that. 
   


A) I think the rules could be amended to allow for instructors to ride with a novice without OD permission.

B) I think the club can also rule that anyone can ride with anyone.

You have to decide if you think it is really fair for advanced drivers to ride with advanced co drivers. Because let's face it, that is the question.

3)  Is VMSC about bragging rights? YES

4)  Do you want to keep competition on and even basis as best we can? That's up to you all

     We went to a lot of effort to institute "RUNNING BY CLASS". It's basis is about evening the
     competition/pavement on race day.

     Will allowing advanced/co-drivers to ride with each other jeopardize that?


Just something to sleep on. I'll make sure an email goes out after the board meeting with what was discussed. 

Have a good one,

Audie Chenery
President - VMSC
 
 





 


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: pipefitter on February 28, 2017, 06:50:51 PM
If we're changing a club's bylaw, is a membership vote required?


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: jamescarriv on March 02, 2017, 08:13:19 AM
"A) I think the rules could be amended to allow for instructors to ride with a novice without OD permission. "

I like that answer. Also perhaps define a novice as any driver with less than 5 events in the past 5 years or something you see fit. Also, any driver determined to need assistance for the safety.

I am against people riding with each other to gain an advantage at points event including co drivers. I know we are a small local club just out there to have fun, but good fair competition is fun for me.

:)


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: rays on March 02, 2017, 12:03:02 PM
Isn't this what practice events are for?

My opinion, keep the rule the way it is. If you are a top 20 or so driver, you should not be riding with other good drivers at points events.

If you are new, you should/must have other experienced drivers ride with you. Any benefit at this level is far outweighed by the increase in safety. I am not going to learn much (anything) riding with a novice. But, I will learn a lot riding with a good driver.

Just my thoughts


It is the SCCA rule at national events. There are also very few, if any novices, at national events. It is not necessarily the rule at SCCA local events where there are plenty of novices. It is not the rule at BRR, for example.

David

As David said, at BRR anybody can ride along with anybody at any time. We debated this long and hard a few years ago and where we settled out was that the social / learning benefits far outweighed the competitive concerns. 


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: wahoo5 on March 02, 2017, 12:50:19 PM


at BRR anybody can ride along with anybody at any time. We debated this long and hard a few years ago and where we settled out was that the social / learning benefits far outweighed the competitive concerns. 
[/quote]

Well reasoned and well stated. That would be my vote. Learning can and should take place far past any definition of novice.

David


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: gunny on March 02, 2017, 08:56:11 PM


at BRR anybody can ride along with anybody at any time. We debated this long and hard a few years ago and where we settled out was that the social / learning benefits far outweighed the competitive concerns. 

Well reasoned and well stated. That would be my vote. Learning can and should take place far past any definition of novice.

David
[/quote]

Yea the above would be my vote also.

gunny


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: jloehlein on March 02, 2017, 09:19:25 PM
Quote

at BRR anybody can ride along with anybody at any time. We debated this long and hard a few years ago and where we settled out was that the social / learning benefits far outweighed the competitive concerns. 

Well reasoned and well stated. That would be my vote. Learning can and should take place far past any definition of novice.

David

Yea the above would be my vote also.

gunny
same


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: pipefitter on March 03, 2017, 07:10:37 AM
I found where I asked this same question in June of '14 under the "VMSC Business". At that time, many people felt that riding was fine for instructional purposes, and nothing more. Maybe we've evolved to a point where that isn't the case any more. I was however, called down for not stopping the competitor I mentioned who was wearing flip flops on his runs. In my defense, I was running the heat I saw him and thought he was simply riding. Anyway, since he WAS driving and didn't have any issues, I feel that flip flops should be considered legal footwear during competition.


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: GeneCooley on March 03, 2017, 12:21:46 PM
Bill, you are right about "evolving". I expect the next step will be the rename the  "VMSC Competition and Speed Regulations" to something a little less harsh sounding. Maybe we should change to  "Suggestion for Event Participants".
We might even get some sponsorship funding from advertising. A "Low T" infomercial would fit right in.
Gene Cooley


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: lugnutz on March 03, 2017, 03:59:09 PM
After the board meeting and an hour and half discussion the board took a vote and it was decided, 6-3 that comp rule 2.7 (B) stands with no changes.

2.7   ENTRANTS
 
 B. Only the driver and non-competing individuals shall be in the car while it is on the course for competitive
      runs unless a navigator or instructor is required by the O.D.(s).

We will be adding a clarification to the as follows:

A driver who has participated in 6 or less events.

Thanks,

Audie Chenery







Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: whiteryder on March 03, 2017, 09:05:35 PM
After the board meeting and an hour and half discussion the board took a vote and it was decided, 6-3 that comp rule 2.7 (B) stands with no changes.

2.7   ENTRANTS
 
 B. Only the driver and non-competing individuals shall be in the car while it is on the course for competitive
      runs unless a navigator or instructor is required by the O.D.(s).

We will be adding a clarification to the as follows:

     A driver who has participated in 6 or less events.

Thanks,

Audie Chenery



Clarification refers to definition of a NOVICE.


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: jamescarriv on March 16, 2017, 12:39:38 PM
Sooo... popular vote goes one way and the electoral vote goes another! When's the protest? :)

Tough call either way, appears to be well thought out
Thank you to the board for putting in the time for the club


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: ricardodemoraes on March 16, 2017, 01:20:43 PM
Protest is at the first event (we will block the course), and I think that the club should give us some comfort food to help us to deal emotionally with the outcome of the vote.


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: wahoo5 on March 17, 2017, 08:53:01 PM
Protest is at the first event (we will block the course), and I think that the club should give us some comfort food to help us to deal emotionally with the outcome of the vote.

ROTFL. We demand comfort food, therapy dogs, and nap pods! Everyone should get a trophy.

David


Title: Re: Riding with your co-driver?
Post by: MikeDe on March 21, 2017, 05:44:38 PM
We could try and enlist Chuck Norris to sway the vote.  My uncle once saw him start fire in less than a second by rubbing together two ice cubes.