Virginia Motor Sport Club Discussion Forums

Results => Autocross => Topic started by: jloehlein on June 21, 2009, 04:41:06 PM

Title: 06/21/2009 Results
Post by: jloehlein on June 21, 2009, 04:41:06 PM
Results from the 06/21/2009 autocross are posted here on MyAutoEvents (  Post here or PM me if you see any errors.

Don't forget to pre-register for the Test and Tune on July 12th if you are interested, space is limited.

Title: Re: 06/21/2009 Results
Post by: ahamos on June 22, 2009, 07:56:31 AM
Dustin Wilson's Mazdaspeed 3 should have been classed in DS, not GS.

Title: Re: 06/21/2009 Results
Post by: jloehlein on June 22, 2009, 02:55:12 PM
Good catch.  I have updated the results.  No one moved places and Dustin's PAX time didn't change much.  I didn't realize that the PAX for GS is actually a tiny bit harder than the PAX for DS!?!  Gotta love it.

Title: Re: 06/21/2009 Results
Post by: wahoo5 on June 22, 2009, 03:17:30 PM
That is what the Cooper S did to GS.


Title: Re: 06/21/2009 Results
Post by: gunny on June 22, 2009, 03:41:10 PM
That was a fun course  ;D
of course I over drove my car and it felt like it was pushing in every turn but it damn sure felt fast (lol) Looking forward to the next one.

Can someone answer who makes the PAX formula and how it's done?  ???  I thought I drove my _ss off and the PAX is killin me!  :o the formula just does no seem quite right to me and my stock street tired Vette.
I think I need to buy a Civic.



Title: Re: 06/21/2009 Results
Post by: rays on June 22, 2009, 04:16:19 PM
This should help 'splain it ( (

Whose usual ride is a GS Cooper S  ::)

Title: Re: 06/21/2009 Results
Post by: gunny on June 22, 2009, 06:48:18 PM
Thanks for the posts. So from the posted web sites class winners are based off of raw time and Overall winners are based from the PAX.
All of our leagues class results are based on PAX? is this correct?
I guess PAX has been around for a while but I still question it's accuracy and the method of getting the right PAX number for a class.
Does a single driver drive all the cars that are represented at a weekend autocross and those times are used as a base for a PAX multiplier? or is the PAX a quesstimation (not a real word I'm sure) and if it is a guesstimation it is based on driver performance or car performance? and to be honest how can this number be a reliable number?

For example
John and I are in SS and we have a multiplier of 0.856
Johns car had some mods to it that my car does not have so how do I have the same multiplier that he has? This straight forward observation tell's me that the multiplier does not mean anything. Again I have to question the PAX multiplier and it's use as a fair system to even up the results. I totally understand why its used but I dont agree with its accuracy or method of creation.
Sorry, the techy in me wants to know and understand the rules applied to me when I compete and to be able to properly convey the rules to someone if they were to ask.



Title: Re: 06/21/2009 Results
Post by: JCHVMSC on June 22, 2009, 07:19:05 PM
Good questions that should generate some good responses. I can comment on a few items but I am sure others will chime in. We are not SCCA affiliated but use their rules ( as our classing guidelines. SCCA updates PAX numbers yearly based on analyzing class results from the previous years events. In our class there are 8-9 pages of definitions on the mods that are allowable for a "stock" class car. Some are unusual, like changing front sway bars is ok, but not rears, and others may be a little more logical like the "Tire must fit the allowable wheels and fender wells without modification". Some simple things like a cold air intake can move you into a different class. PAX has, and will always be, controversial for some cars and modifications, but we have to have some basic rules to work from - actually controversial enough that you can get "No PAX" T shirts. One of the reasons I switched to a vette is my MCoupe, with a bunch of mods, was classed in ASP with Roger's 505HP vette. It did get moved to BSP later in the year, but I was already hooked by then. Download the rulebook and you can spend hours of not so fun reading and trying to understand all the rules. I am sure others will chime in with even better information.

Title: Re: 06/21/2009 Results
Post by: gunny on June 22, 2009, 07:40:12 PM
Thanks!  :D
I think I'll get one of those "No Pax" T shirts or hats and I'll leave it at that.

Title: Re: 06/21/2009 Results
Post by: JCHVMSC on June 22, 2009, 08:16:36 PM
One of our Corvette driver buddies always has one on a lot - and takes PAX and RAW times regularly


Title: Re: 06/21/2009 Results
Post by: ahamos on June 22, 2009, 08:33:49 PM
One of the single biggest differences that you can make to a car without changing your class is adding race rubber.  It's harder to control at the limit, but the limits are much higher.  Comparable cars with comparable drivers will be separated by several seconds simply by putting the right size and compound race tires under the arches.  PAX obfuscates this detail, which is why we run Street vs Open tire classes.

But yes, the formula changes yearly, and there are people who compete at a national level who spend countless hours every year researching which car to drive for just that year to gain a competitive edge with the current PAX modifiers.

If it were within my budget, you'd best believe I'd strap some race rubber on to my new Mazdaspeed 3 and take serious advantage of the current PAX snafu that allows DS to have a far better modifier than GS.

Title: Re: 06/21/2009 Results
Post by: rays on June 23, 2009, 04:46:27 PM
One of the assumptions for the index is that the cars in any given class are prepared to the limit of the rules.  Remember that the index is designed to compare the relative performance of the cars in one class to the cars in another class. It is not designed to compare your car, at what ever level of preparation it might be, to the other cars.

The way I use PAX is to get an idea of how well I drove my car on that day compared to other drivers whose cars are at a similar level of preparation.


Title: Re: 06/21/2009 Results
Post by: Marc on July 09, 2009, 12:12:50 PM
Note that the numerical PAX value for every class is updated every year and fundamentally normalizes the time a driver with equal skill in any class would run as a function of his skill level. What this means is if I were capable of driving a SS class car with exactly the same level of precision as I could an HS class car, the PAX time would be the same for both runs. That said, I cannot over emphasize how important the statement Ray made is - PAX is a basis, nothing more. It is assumed that participants in any class will fully exploit the limits of that class. As John states, in stock class you are very restricted as to what performance enhancements can be made. Typical upgrades such as to R compound tires can make a significant improvement in handling capability. As a consequence of this, car's of "higher performance potential" with subsequent numerically high PAX values, that have NOT made most of their class allowable performance improvements will not typically rank well in PAX standings.  Additionally, these same cars will typically not rank well with-in their respective class as well.  Of course there are always exceptions.... or should I say exceptional drivers!  ::)